https://www.amazon.com/Secret-History-Home-Economics-Trailblazing/dp/1324004495

Birthgap is about why people are having so few kids these days and what that means for both individuals and societies. We dig into the data around falling birth rates and the cultural norms that lead some women to delay motherhood until it’s too late. We also discuss how unplanned childlessness impacts men, would-be grandparents and the future of humanity. 

I’ll come right out with my bias by sharing that Stephen’s film totally rocked my world, not least because it catalyzed this podcast and my writing to you here.

I had just turned 29 when I saw it in March of 2023. Having caught baby fever over the previous year, I knew my then-fiancé and I would start trying to get pregnant soon after our wedding that summer. A younger version of myself would tell you that I was right on track: marriage by 30, a baby or two by 35.

Through Birthgap, I learned that half (or more) of my sisters, peers and friends who also set their sights on having their first baby in their 30s might instead become childless by age 45. I was shocked and saddened. The data was compelling, but the stories of women who missed out on motherhood for this or that reason were heartbreaking.

I came to realize that our culture and education systems are failing young people by not teaching them that fertility is precious, time is short and life should be ordered accordingly. So, I joined the virtual feedback session hoping to connect with anyone else who wanted to do something about it.

The group was small enough that each of us could introduce ourselves and our personal interest in the documentary. Kathryn, with her husband Bruce by her side, briefly described her idea for a nonprofit focused on increasing the social and economic status of mothers and householders. The rest is Hearth Matters history.

Kathryn and I are incredibly grateful to Stephen for a thoughtful, thought-provoking conversation (the first of many, we hope), for building the forum around Birthgap that connected the two of us and for all of his work in bringing attention to a complex and significant issue facing us all.

Enjoy; then watch Part I of Birthgap on YouTube.

–Erin, with baby Brynn who is three months old and napping happily on my chest

P.S., you can read the transcript of this episode on the Substack post.

Find Part II & Part III and follow Stephen Shaw’s work at birthgap.org

Interested in exploring these ideas in more depth? Lene warmly invites you to join the conversation "What it Means to Be Human" on September 21st–this virtual event is free of charge. Sign up here: https://www.globalbildung.net/what-it-means-to-be-human-2024-september-21/

Since 2005, Lene Rachel Andersen has written 20 books including The Nordic Secret (2017; new edition January 2024), Metamodernity (2019) (relaunched 2023 as Polymodernity) Bildung (2020), What is Bildung? (2021), and Libertism (2022) and she received two Danish democracy awards: Ebbe Kløvedal-Reich Democracy Baton (2007) and Døssing Prisen, the Danish librarians’ democracy prize (2012). Lene is a member of the Club of Rome, President of the Copenhagen based think tank Nordic Bildung, and co-founder of the Global Bildung Network. You can find her work here.

Follow Tammy Peterson on X @Tammy1Peterson and tune into the Tammy Peterson Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

Dianne is a mother of four and grandmother of five who has worked with the United Nations and World Health Organization on initiatives related to motherhood, mentorship, innovation and leadership. 

Dixie’s current book project is a history of homeschooling in Los Angeles since 1950. Follow her on X @DixieDillonLane and on Substack at TheHollow.substack.com.

Follow Shannon’s work at TheRadicalHomemaker.net and tune into her podcast, The Hearth of Sap Bush Hollow, wherever you get your podcasts. To learn more about Sap Bush Hollow Farm, including the cafe, honor store and more, visit: http://www.sapbushfarmstore.com/

Share

Periodical is now available for streaming on ⁠Peacock⁠ and ⁠Amazon Prime Video⁠. Learn more about Lina's work at: https://www.lytefilms.com/accelerator

Follow Jim on X ⁠@Dalrymple⁠ and subscribe to!

Follow Catherine on X ⁠@CRPakaluk⁠ and read or listen to ⁠Hannah's Children: The Women Quietly Defying the Birth Dearth⁠ –now available from your favorite book seller. 

In this episode, we discuss Mary’s critique of industrial era feminist narratives and her call for a feminism that embraces interdependence and radical solidarity. We also discuss why abolishing Big Romance (but not Mr. Big) might lead to the happiness that can be found in an upcycled vintage social technology, a.k.a. marriage. Mary offers a fresh perspective on progress and the importance of preserving social bonds.

Follow Mary Harrington on X ⁠⁠@moveincircles⁠ and find more of her work at:

• ⁠reactionaryfeminist.substack.com

• unherd.com/author/mary-harrington

• ⁠⁠⁠Feminism Against Progress⁠⁠⁠

Join Kathryn and Erin for a provocative riff on this year’s theme, “inclusion,” and why they think some feminists have taken this idea too far.

Share

Episode Transcript:

SPEAKER 2: Kathryn Lukas-Damer

I think they've bought fully into the market economy and they have little to no respect for the domestic sphere or the women who nurture future generations because they tend to see the entire family enterprise as oppressive, because it's not waged.

They're using market economy metrics to value everything.

…

SPEAKER 1: Erin Szuma

Happy Belated Birthday, Kathryn, and Happy International Women's Day.

Your birthday falls on the first day of Women's History Month, which I think is pretty cool.

SPEAKER 2: Kathryn Lukas-Damer

Yeah, it is.

And thank you, Erin.

And same to you.

So tell us what you know about International Women's Day.

I must admit, I knew very little.

SPEAKER 1: Erin Szuma

Yeah, I mean, I have to admit the same, but I did a little research into it.

And International Women's Day, it actually predates Women's History Month by about 70 years.

It was originally introduced by a German socialist and first celebrated in Austria and Germany and Switzerland in

And what I found most interesting is that it's actually a product of the labor and suffrage movements that began in the late 19th and the early 20th century, which we know both of these movements to be a response to the industrial era when work for the first time moves out of the home and into the factories.

And specifically in the U.S., the Socialist Party designated International Women's Day to honor the garment worker strike in New York, where primarily Jewish women were protesting these terrible working conditions.

And we're talking

75-Hour Work Weeks, No Breaks, Fines for Being Late, and often even a requirement to supply their own materials.

So a real shift from what we had been accustomed to prior to the industrial era.

SPEAKER 2: Kathryn Lukas-Damer

We can thank these early rebels for our 40-Hour Work Week.

Yes, definitely.

Well, I've been thinking about how very lucky we are here in the West.

So many women around the world still work relentlessly around the clock, but still experience heartbreaking levels of poverty.

And they have little if any access to opportunities that would make their lives better.

And

According to the World Health Organization, the maternal mortality rate in low-income countries is one in 49 compared to one in 5,300 in high-income countries.

In developing countries, the average infant mortality rate is 61 deaths per 1,000 live births compared to eight deaths per 1,000 births in developed countries.

I mean, the list goes on and on.

Access to fresh water, family planning, education.

By contrast, women have a lot to celebrate in the developed West.

We've achieved so much in the last 150 years.

SPEAKER 1: Erin Szuma

Yeah, you're right.

As of 2021, more American women over 25 years old have college degrees than our male counterparts.

So the real shift from just the 1970s.

And within the next five years, women will outnumber men on college campuses two to one.

Hmm.

And then I want to raise the gender wage gap here as well and point to the positive side.

So you look at all ages, all types of jobs, women are earning about 84 cents to every dollar that a man earns.

But when you drill down a little bit, women who don't have children, they're between ages 25 and 34.

They're making about 97% as much as men, which is pretty remarkable when you consider that women tend toward lower paying jobs like teachers, which there's much to be said about what we should be paying teachers.

But I think that these are incredible achievements and we have a lot to celebrate for that reason.

SPEAKER 2: Kathryn Lukas-Damer

Yes.

Yes, indeed.

You know, it seems to me, Erin, that young women in the States and perhaps Europe don't recognize how truly blessed they are.

So many young people have distorted perceptions of the world and their circumstances.

You know, I've said this before.

Imagine our grandmothers or our great grandmothers.

Despite how crazy the world was, they still managed to have a few kids and elevate the standard of living for those children well beyond their own.

And these women endured a plague, for instance, in 1918 and 1919 that wiped out young adults, not the elderly and infirm like COVID did, young working adults, working age adults, like one fifth of the world's population by some estimates.

They lived through two world wars and a depression, you know?

Right.

Yeah.

Well, and they had no choice.

SPEAKER 1: Erin Szuma

Birth control wasn't a thing yet either.

Right.

SPEAKER 2: Kathryn Lukas-Damer

That's right.

Right.

I mean, I wonder how many of us would not be here if they had had access to birth control.

I'll never know.

And, you know, I'm a fan of birth control and benefited greatly from its existence.

So I would never suggest we go back to the way it was.

But I do wish young women could recognize how the attention economy warps their perception and how much it hurts them.

SPEAKER 1: Erin Szuma

Yeah, you're right.

I mean, we see it in depression rates for women and young girls that are at an all-time high.

This attention economy, it's got them focused on their appearance or on consumer products or even on things like how the world isn't safe enough to bring children in.

SPEAKER 2: Kathryn Lukas-Damer

Yeah, yeah.

And a host of fairly unhealthy narratives.

And it's really a shame because we have so much to celebrate, you know.

I've also been thinking about the feminization of our culture that Corey Clark, the behavioral scientist at the University of Pennsylvania, talks about.

SPEAKER 1: Erin Szuma

Me Too.

She was recently on an episode of Maiden Mother Matriarch with Louise Perry.

Right.

And one of the things that she talks about is that we see feminization in our educational institutions that really sort of trickles out everywhere.

And as a woman, one would think that this is a really positive development, but it's

There does seem to be an imbalance between the masculine and the feminine, and we're seeing a lot of dysfunction as a result.

SPEAKER 2: Kathryn Lukas-Damer

Right, right.

You know, my reaction to her work really surprised me.

I mean, at first I was resistant, like, what are you talking about?

But I kept an open mind and I discovered that she really makes some interesting and valid points.

I mean, the idea that men are warriors and women are worriers really struck a chord.

Of course, there are plenty of exceptions, but I had several aha moments while listening to her on this podcast.

Starting With Why Women Have a Tendency to Be Very Inclusive.

SPEAKER 1: Erin Szuma

Yeah, actually, that is the theme of Women's History Month, which is something else that I found out through my research is that Women's History Month gets a different theme each year.

And this this year happens to be equity and inclusion.

Right, right.

SPEAKER 2: Kathryn Lukas-Damer

So, for instance, because some women want this very small percentage of men who identify as women to feel included.

They have asked all women, more than 50% of the population, to change their language in order to accommodate this group.

Yes.

SPEAKER 1: Erin Szuma

Yes.

I've definitely started to notice this through my pregnancy.

Mothers are birthing people.

Breastfeeding is now breastfeeding or chest feeding.

I've seen content about menstruators and bleeders and really reducing us down to some of these biological functions, which I find to be fairly off-putting as a woman and mother-to-be.

SPEAKER 2: Kathryn Lukas-Damer

Yeah, and because women tend to be more comfortable in smaller groups with high levels of trust, and we know a lot about this with studies of little girls on playgrounds and in our own personal experiences as girls, this tends to mean that anyone whose narrative runs counter to our small groups, you know, meaning-making system, it's not allowed in.

They're not, you know, they're not allowed to speak, say, at a university.

And it starts to look an awful lot like authoritarianism when things are out of balance.

SPEAKER 1: Erin Szuma

Yeah, right.

The mindset being that anyone who disagrees with these small groups who have stolen our ancient terms like mothers and are replacing them with the more inclusive versions, they're getting canceled.

SPEAKER 2: Kathryn Lukas-Damer

Yeah, yeah.

And men, on the other hand, are apparently motivated to be open to different opinions because they need numbers on their side to win wars from an evolutionary standpoint.

Not today as much, but it's carried over.

And they have a very structured way of dealing with differing perspectives.

For instance...

And what comes to mind is the peer review process that's been around since the 17th century.

So when you finish an academic paper, you send it out for peer review and you ask for criticism in order to make your paper stronger.

In fact, part of creating a very good hypothesis is including a pathway to falsify your assertions.

So I'm going to go out on a limb here

And even say that some of these more radical groups of women who are so focused on inclusiveness to the exclusion of other opinions are really patriarchal feminists.

Okay.

Say more.

Well,

I think of these women and I think it's actually a relatively small group of women, but they have a big voice right now in our culture.

I think they've bought fully into the market economy and they have little to no respect for the domestic sphere or the women who nurture future generations because they tend to see the entire family enterprise as oppressive because it's not waged.

They're using market economy metrics to value everything.

And these groups seem willing to degrade women and women's spaces in order to make space for small minorities of people.

And it's not to say that we you and I wouldn't make space for a trans man who's transitioned to being a woman.

I would make space for him and in my social circle and any number of things.

But I'm not going to like pretend like he can like he has ovaries.

I'm not going to pretend like he can have babies or bleed or breastfeed.

And whatever they're doing to get these men to breastfeed is, you know, if they're giving the stuff that they're running through their chests to babies, I mean, that's child abuse.

This is not real breast milk.

They don't come with the equipment to create breast milk.

It starts to go way too far.

But you and I both are very open to any number of people's need to express themselves, but don't come into our spaces.

And in some ways, these really sort of hardcore feminists don't realize that they're in some ways agents of the darkest aspects of patriarchy.

SPEAKER 1: Erin Szuma

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, and I think to expand a little bit more on what I think you mean by that is that these groups view empowerment strictly in terms of how well women perform in a workforce that was built by and for men.

SPEAKER 2: Kathryn Lukas-Damer

Yeah.

SPEAKER 1: Erin Szuma

In a way, we gained this parity with men in the workforce and in leadership positions in all aspects of society.

But we sort of left it there.

that women haven't really shifted how we work to support our unique needs in a meaningful way.

And those needs are so different from men in terms of when and how we are most productive.

When you think about our cycles, about being pregnant for nine months with each kid, 10 months really.

or even things like going through menopause.

SPEAKER 2: Kathryn Lukas-Damer

Right, right.

And, you know, in the 90s, job sharing was a thing, for instance, but you don't see this anymore in the workforce.

I don't know why.

Just as one way that we could accommodate women better in the workforce was

I just hope that we can find some sort of balance between the masculine and the feminine in the public sphere.

I mean, we're asking men to change their workspace to accommodate our needs.

Perhaps we need to learn from their approach to upgrading their thinking by being open to a variety of perspectives.

SPEAKER 1: Erin Szuma

Like we said earlier, I think there's a lot of work to do in terms of finding the balance between masculine and feminine in the public sphere.

But that's not a conversation that some of these more radical feminist groups are willing to have, right?

They're pursuing progress through the lens of we need equal pay.

And that's where the conversation tends to stop.

SPEAKER 2: Kathryn Lukas-Damer

Yeah, I mean, equal pay is important, right?

I mean, I really agree with their assertions there.

It's just when they go too far and exclude men or people who have different opinions from conversations.

And as you rightly pointed out, I think this morning, that a lot of female-run and women-centric businesses were celebrating Black History Month

The First Week of February.

But here it is, the first week of Women's History Month.

And they're all pretty quiet about women.

They're not even celebrating women's achievements in the public sphere.

It's really an interesting time.

And the thing is, I don't think most women really agree with a lot of this stuff.

I think that

Majority of Women.

We're just working hard.

We're navigating both the public sphere and the domestic sphere.

And we just keep mum because we don't want to get canceled by these powerful groups of women who seem to have the public microphone at the moment, you know?

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

And what we originally wanted to talk about and what I want to get into now is something I discovered when I was researching stuff for Hearth Matters a couple of years ago.

And I think it's really fun and interesting.

And in a way, it speaks to how there maybe is an opportunity to rethink how the spheres are balanced, the masculine and the feminine, the public and the domestic.

And so I want to talk about this really interesting thing that I discovered that you know what I'm about to say.

And it's something that happens on March 1st, which, as you know, is my birthday, as we already talked about.

It's a really important hearth related day.

SPEAKER 1: Erin Szuma

Hearth Related Day.

Yes, that is Vesta Day.

And Vesta is the Roman hearth goddess.

SPEAKER 2: Kathryn Lukas-Damer

Right, right.

So she was modeled on the Greek goddess Hestia, and their temples were essentially public hearths.

And on March 1st, for hundreds and perhaps thousands of years, the flame that had burned all year long was extinguished and then relit, which signified renewal.

All cultures share some sort of renewal ritual.

SPEAKER 1: Erin Szuma

Do they still perform the ceremony?

SPEAKER 2: Kathryn Lukas-Damer

You know, really, apparently a small group of women still gather at the ruins in Rome every year on March 1st, but the official flame was extinguished in 394 by Theodosius, a Roman emperor.

Okay, but here, now the story gets even better.

March 1st is also the Matronelia feast day, which celebrates Juno Lucina, the goddess of childbirth.

Now, Lucina is actually an epitaph or a by name like, you know, Alexander or Catherine the Great.

Lucina was a term of reverence used for only two goddesses, Juno and Diana.

So in Roman and Hellenistic religion, Diana is the goddess of the hunt and wildlife and the moon, protector of childbirth and the protector of

Women's Labor.

Do you know what my middle name is?

It's Diane.

SPEAKER 1: Erin Szuma

It's Diane.

SPEAKER 2: Kathryn Lukas-Damer

I mean, isn't that crazy?

Okay.

Now, I know there's a one in 365 chance that I'd be born on March 1st.

So this isn't that big of a coincidence, but it's fun.

And one more important thing that brings this story together is that in early Roman era, March 1st was the beginning of the calendar year and celebrated much like we celebrate New Year.

So it's interesting that the Roman mother, Matronelia,

And the Vesta Temples were at the center of these celebrations.

And I want to read something I found on a nonprofit website called Vindolanda, which is a Roman excavation site.

So they say the Matronalia Festival signaled a period of renewal when laurel garlands decorating the houses of priests and practitioners of the sacred rites were replaced.

At the Temple of Vesta, the Vestal Virgins, which is a whole nother story, also extinguished the sacred fire on the hearth and relit it.

The festival was often regarded as the female counterpart of Saturnalia, which is a festival that celebrates agriculture, in its own importance and focused on interactions between mistresses and their slaves, part of the deal back then.

Relations Between Spouses and the Production of the Roman Empire's Only Guarantee of Survival, Children.

Now, I don't want to over-glorify the status that women experienced in Greece and Rome because they were subordinated to men and very much second-class citizens in public life, but they ruled the domestic sphere.

For most of human history, the hearth and the women who kept its flame lit

Who Bore and Nourished the Next Generation.

They were exalted and celebrated and enjoyed a type of status that householders and mothers simply don't today.

SPEAKER 1: Erin Szuma

It's such an interesting contrast.

SPEAKER 2: Kathryn Lukas-Damer

Yeah.

SPEAKER 1: Erin Szuma

Because here we are in 2024 and one of the lowest status positions in our culture is a mother and a full-time householder.

Most of our celebrations when we think about women's achievements are focused on the public sphere and of course as we've said there is a lot to celebrate about that you and I wouldn't be having this conversation if it were not for those achievements that precede us but I find it interesting and now as a mother I

It's quite disappointing how little we recognize the domestic sphere.

I would have never gone out and done this exploration had I not been pregnant.

So it's it's almost as if we just don't we don't see it.

You don't see it.

You don't say it.

I was asking myself, why not?

Why are we not celebrating women as mothers and the work that they do in the domestic sphere?

So if you think about it, all Heritage Month celebrations are products of the market economy, right?

Parades,

Events, Social Media, Campaigns.

They're corporate branding opportunities.

They're things that are designed to capture our attention and our dollars.

And they're to speak to people who care about these ideas.

I mean, one example is Pride Month.

We're Going to Celebrate Your Right to Express Your Identity.

And in exchange, we want you to give us $100 for this cool rainbow hoodie.

It's a really, really commercialized public sphere product that's being bought and sold.

And so it's no wonder that mothers and the women who work in the domestic sphere aren't being factored into that

Profit Model, frankly.

SPEAKER 2: Kathryn Lukas-Damer

Yeah, that's an interesting way to think about it.

I mean, a lot of these parades and a lot of the events around this stuff, I think, have been celebrated for a long time.

And a matter of fact, I think rituals, we have very few rituals left.

And so in a way, the market economy fills those rituals up with consumer goods.

You're totally right.

And because industrialization separated the spheres and prioritized the public sphere over the domestic in terms of status, and because the domestic sphere was a place of subordination for way too long, and many, not all women still think the embodied activities of hearth and home are low status, and even though there are plenty of monotonous tasks in our public sphere jobs, because we get cash for them, we don't complain too much.

But boy, the monotonous jobs at home are unpaid and feel like we're underappreciated and it's unrecognized labor.

So we begrudgingly do it or we hire it out.

SPEAKER 1: Erin Szuma

Definitely.

Right.

I mean, and to that point, as we said earlier, Women's History Month campaigns, they tend to focus on closing that gender pay gap, which is more and more, I think, rightly so being framed as a motherhood penalty.

because when you really start to see a wage gap between men and women from ages 35 on it's because that's when women are most likely to be taking time off or holding less lucrative jobs that afford them more flexibility so that they can care for their babies we know that 20% of all mothers will leave the workforce altogether at some point and

For those who do work full time, household labor is seen as the second shift.

So instead of taking care of themselves after an exhausting day at the office, the care that they're providing to their families feels like much more of a monotonous burden, understandably so.

SPEAKER 2: Kathryn Lukas-Damer

Yeah.

Yeah.

And the reality is all women work in both spheres.

Well, a large percentage of women work in the public sphere.

All women work in the domestic sphere.

So many of us straddle both spheres.

And it's interesting when we say, oh, yeah, 20 percent of mothers will leave the workforce.

It's like, yeah, but they're not going home to have somebody feed them grapes while they lay around on the couch.

They're working their butts off.

Right.

Right.

Right.

But again, because it's not waged, it has less status.

And there are a lot of important considerations.

I understand this, right?

There's economic vulnerability for women who are at home with babies or with their children.

They're relying on the, as Mary Harrington says, on the goodwill.

and the good character of their partner, whether it's another woman or a man.

And so it's a vulnerable space.

And how do we think about protecting that as a culture is something we really need to think about going forward.

And a lot of it starts with diet agreements and things like that.

But

Boy, wouldn't it be wonderful if we really could start to think a lot differently about the domestic sphere?

Because let's face it, we needed to escape the domestic sphere for a few years because our voices needed to be included in the public sphere.

And I really celebrate our achievements there, but that's not to say that we should leave the domestic sphere unattended.

Right, right.

SPEAKER 1: Erin Szuma

You pointed out earlier that...

May is when we celebrate Mother's Day, but we don't necessarily celebrate mothers for the work that they do.

And so wouldn't it be great for March to sort of infuse that level of celebration or take a lens on the women who are doing work within their families, within their communities, women who volunteer and get involved with school boards and all those important things.

That Make Society Flourish.

And we can recognize that, that we don't just have to use market metrics to value and celebrate women.

SPEAKER 2: Kathryn Lukas-Damer

Right, right.

There have been so many unintended consequences of leaving the domestic sphere unattended, and we've talked a lot about that.

And now I think is the time as we look at the industrial era

In the Rearview Mirror.

And we enter the digital age and we recognize all of our accomplishments in the public sphere.

Now is the time to rethink how we think about the domestic sphere.

And I think we have to begin by recognizing the importance, as you point out, of this space physically and metaphorically.

And I think that

One of the ways we can do that is by reuniting home and work.

The separation of home and work has really been at the core of a lot of the issues that we're talking about.

You know, feminism is a way that women have tried to make sense of a separation of these spheres.

And it's a really it's interesting to think about it like that.

There wasn't really much in the way of feminism before the industrial era.

And When Work and Home Were United.

Women have always worked.

We've just worked at our homes.

When work and home are reunited, as I think can be in the digital age, there's so much opportunity to bring back the respect of this sphere for men and for women, right?

Men also need someplace they can really be comfortable.

Not Just a Super Feminine Frilly Place Where They Have to, You Know, Behave a Certain Way, right?

Erica Bachiochi talks about that, right?

Like, how do we create home in a way that really is a nourishing space for the entire family?

SPEAKER 1: Erin Szuma

Yeah.

Yeah, you recently wrote me saying that all you wanted for your birthday is a shiny new narrative, which I love the way that that's framed, but a shiny new narrative that acknowledges and respects the important work that women undertake in both spheres.

Many women excel in both spheres, but are rarely recognized for their outstanding service to the preservation of humanity.

And I just adored the way that you phrased that.

So

Cheers to that.

Let's keep working hard to make your wish for your birthday and for your work at Hearth Matters come true.

SPEAKER 2: Kathryn Lukas-Damer

Yeah, well, great.

Great.

Thank you so much, Erin.

I hope we can make this wish come true together.

And to all of the women listening, happy

International Women's Day.

Happy Women's History Month.

And we do truly have so much to celebrate.

So I hope you can take a moment today to reflect on how far we've come and how far we have yet to go, but how we really can do this together.

If we put our hearts and our minds together, we can make things much better for women and for children as we move through the digital age.

Thank you, Erin.

Bye, everyone.

What should women know about their biological clock, subfertility, and the limitations of assisted reproductive technology? These are some of the topics we cover in this episode–the first of many conversations we hope to have about the very complex subjects of body literacy and fertility.  

Recommended resources:

• ⁠fertility-wise.com ⁠

• Finding a fertility awareness educator - ⁠AFAP⁠

• Henderson-Jack, Lisa. The Fifth Vital Sign, Fertility Friday Publishing, 2019

• Weschler, Toni. Taking Charge of Your Fertility, 20th Anniversary Edition, Harper-Collins, 2015

• Briden, Lara. Period Repair Manual, 2nd Edition, 2018

• Romm, Aviva. Hormone Intelligence, HarperOne, 2021

• ⁠https://www.vox.com/first-person/22370250/should-i-have-kids-a-baby-decide-start-family-parenthood-kids-childfree⁠

• ⁠https://theconversation.com/should-i-have-children-why-societys-idealisation-of-motherhood-benefits-no-one-219935⁠

• ⁠https://www.acog.org/womens-health/faqs/having-a-baby-after-age-35-how-aging-affects-fertility-and-pregnancy⁠

• ⁠https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/having-a-baby-at-40#conception⁠

• ⁠https://www.mhs.net/blog/2023/05/pregnancy-after-40⁠

• ⁠https://medium.com/@mhdempsey/whats-next-for-egg-freezing-69072524788b - 2017⁠

• ⁠Exposure to endocrine disruptors during adulthood: Consequences for female fertility, 2017⁠

• ⁠Effects of endocrine-disrupting compounds on female fertility, 2023⁠

• ⁠Health Benefits of normal periods⁠

• ⁠Are irregular menstrual cycles associated with higher risk of premature mortality?⁠ (NEJM, 2020)

• ⁠Temporal trends in sperm count: a systematic review and meta-regression analysis of samples collected globally in the 20th and 21st centuries⁠, 2023.

In this episode, we discuss her latest book, The Rights of Women: Reclaiming a Lost Vision (Notre Dame Press), which looks at the philosophy of 18th century feminist Mary Wollstonecraft and why her ideas are so relevant for women today. We also talk about “Pursuing the Reunification of Home and Work,” an essay Erika published in American Compass, and practical ways to integrate career with family life in the 21st century. 

Learn more about Erika’s work: 

• ⁠The Rights of Women: Reclaiming a Lost Vision⁠

• ⁠The Wollstonecraft Project at the Abigail Adams Institute⁠

• Fairer Disputations ⁠

• ⁠American Compass article, “Pursuing the Reunification of Home and Work⁠” 

• ⁠New York Times article, “Opinion: What Makes a Fetus a Person”⁠

• New York Times article, “In Post-Roe World, These Conservatives Embrace a New Kind of Welfare”⁠

• Plough article, “The Justice Mothers Are Due”⁠

The Hearth Matters Podcast is growing quickly, and we have many more thought-provoking interviews lined up in the months ahead. It’s a privilege to be able to upgrade our thinking and learn right alongside you. If you are enjoying our podcast, please take a moment to give us a rating and consider sharing these conversations with your friends.

Share Hearth Matters

If you have feedback on how we can improve your listening experience, please drop us a comment or send us an email. We always appreciate hearing from you.

From our hearth to yours,

Kathryn and Erin

Naëlle Yoshimura is a mother and chemistry teacher turned home based bakery owner who recently launched her ⁠Gluten Free DIYers ⁠blog that features innovative gluten free recipes. Naelle shares how she and her husband approached the Two Income Trap and what it’s like to make a living running a cottage food business while raising two young children. 

Learn More:

• ⁠Glutenfreediyers.com⁠

• ⁠Gluten Free DIYers Instagram⁠

• ⁠Yoshi Sans Gluten Bakery⁠

• ⁠Cottage Food Law California⁠

Share

Nancy Chang, the owner of ⁠Purpose and Hope,⁠ makes delicious and healing soups right from her home kitchen. Inspired by her mother’s battle with cancer, Nancy shares her company’s origin story and the practical steps she took to lift it off during the COVID-19 pandemic. 

To learn more:

• Visit the ⁠Purpose and Hope website⁠

• Follow ⁠Purpose and Hope on Instagram⁠

• Find details about AB626 in California ⁠MEHKO

Learn more about Simone & Malcolm's work:

• Find comprehensive resources for parents: ⁠⁠https://pronatalist.org/parent-resources/⁠⁠

• Explore The Collins Institute: ⁠https://collinsinstitute.org/⁠

• Tune in and subscribe their podcast, Based Camp: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@SimoneandMalcolm⁠

• Read The Pragmatist's Guide book series: ⁠https://www.amazon.com/Pragmatists-Guide-Life-Creating-Questions-ebook/dp/B079LRHPM7⁠

• Check out Simone's curated YouTube playlist, Vintage Guides to Life: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLU_Z2-5kGLKuKm5Qv_SxlU4GAnFlrjYb3⁠

Interested in learning more about falling birthrates around the world? We highly recommend the documentary, Birthgap. You can watch Part I here:

We’re available wherever you get your podcasts from. Enjoy, and please rate and share The Hearth Matters Podcast with your friends and family!

SPEAKER 1: Kathryn

Whoever's home needs to be thinking about how do we protect these four walls so that this is really a sanctuary.

And that includes managing technology in a really responsible way, not letting people have access to your children.

And that's one of the initiatives that we think and talk about a lot.

So this is a really relevant issue for both of us, I think.

I'm sure you probably listened to the whole interview of Tristan Harris and Asa Raskin with Joe Rogan.

And I didn't listen.

Did you listen to the whole interview?

Yeah, I mean, I was I'm already pretty familiar with them and their Center for Humane Technology.

But if our young people are captured by social media narratives and the extreme right and left are the voices that incite rage and therefore power algorithms that are profitable.

You know, how do we go about changing that?

Because that's what I that's what I fear is that

that unless we sort of address that, it's going to be hard to rescue.

Um, you know, millennials for sure.

I don't know what's happening with Gen Z, but the generation coming right behind them, we better have our act together.

We better have this really figured out because I, I fear for Gen Z and what we've allowed, uh, technologists to do to their brains with these really powerful technologies.

Uh, yeah.

What did you think of that interview?

SPEAKER 2: Erin

Yeah, I think I mean, I shared the sentiment and I also shared the optimism at the same time that like, if we have thoughtful, benevolent leaders in AI that like the transformations can be life altering and I the other episode that was

really encouraging to me was with the leader of Ways to Wellness on Joe Rogan.

And he's talking about the way that AI can be integrated into the biotech space, and how we really could be close to curing chronic disease,

and cancer and even some of our autoimmune disorders, like the possibilities, talk about human suffering in that space alone, are

tremendous.

And so we, to me, unless, as I think some people have speculated that AGI already exists, and it just hasn't been released upon the world, like there is time to sort of intervene and have, you know, these discussions about how we want this technology to be used for good, as opposed to, you know,

Well, so I wanted to pick up that AGI thread.

There's no AGI.

SPEAKER 1: Kathryn

It just isn't physically possible.

And, you know, Ben Gertzel and, of course, my husband, Bruce Dahmer, they think a lot about this stuff.

Bruce spoke at an AI conference a couple of months ago.

When you hear them break it down, when you hear experts break down what's possible and what's not, there's no AGI.

And so I guess, you know, we don't have time to get into, like, what all the details are of what AGI is versus what AI is, but most experts who are respected in the field who work closely with it agree we're probably at least 10 years off.

and maybe more, that we'd almost have to remake the computing system using, there's some suggestion that we need to use biological wetware models, that there are too many limitations to the chip model.

And maybe that's not the right way to say it.

Maybe it's not chip.

So here we go.

I have just enough information to be dangerous.

But I take your point that these are new technologies that need regulation.

And I'm hoping that somebody like Apple comes out with a phone for children.

That's a really nice, it looks, they're proud to have it.

It's hip, it's fun, but it doesn't have access to wifi and maybe blocks any access to the internet, you know, um, something that limits it.

And yeah, I mean, do you think, do you think that's like, would you let your soon to be child have access to an iPhone at age 12 even?

SPEAKER 2: Erin

No, I would go for the kiddie version.

And I think that there if if one's not out on the market right now, that it's in development, and the kiddie version would have like location services turned on Google Maps, that kind of thing.

Yeah.

So you've got sort of the the safety because that's that's the justification among or rather like the parent the pressure that's put on parents right now is, well,

I need to give them a phone so that I know where they are when they're out with their friends.

We're no longer in the era of like, open the door and let the kids go out and run in the neighborhood.

So I get that.

But it's a huge trade off when you think about having these apps on the phone.

And that is certainly not something that I am interested in giving my kids.

SPEAKER 1: Kathryn

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, something I keep thinking of the automobile, and you've heard me sort of talk about this before, when the automobile was first introduced, it was really problematic.

There weren't stop lights or even stop signs.

And I saw a TikTok the other day, or maybe it was Bruce brought something to my attention that in New York City,

Something like three million pounds of horse poop accumulated every single day.

It was a huge, massive issue and it made people sick, especially in the

You know, poor, like if you watch the Gilded Age, the streets are all nice and clean, right?

But that was in the rich neighborhoods where they could afford to have people coming by constantly.

And so, you know, it became a sewer during rains.

And then when it dried out, it got into the air and caused all kinds of problems.

But people still fought automobiles, even though it was a beautiful new technology.

And, you know, had to.

We didn't let eight year olds drive cars.

We didn't even let 12 year olds drive cars at a certain.

I mean, we did originally, but eventually, you know, 16 in this country, it should be 18.

It's 18 in Europe in order to get a license to drive a car.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You can drink in Germany before you can drive.

And if you think about it, it makes a lot more sense.

Yeah.

That, that makes sense to me.

And my son didn't drive until he, he brought his grade level up in order for us to get the cheaper insurance rates.

Cause if you're like below a B you don't.

So we had that agreement with him and it took him, I don't know.

I can't remember exactly, but I want to say he was 17 when he got his license.

And even that felt too scary, you know, to give a boy with a lot of testosterone, you know, a fast car, a lethal weapon.

So in any event, though, 16, we have all these laws now around cars and licensing.

And I do hope that eventually we think about these technologies in the same way.

But in the meantime, you know,

Moms who have time and dads who have time to actually be with their kids instead of putting them in front of these phones as babysitters so they can get their tasks done.

Or they're just so scattered or working with their own sort of addictions around phones or whatever, right?

This idea of, you know, that we talk a lot about, like the leadership in a home that a full-time householder provides, really embracing that role as also protector of the

the space, the airwaves coming into the home, right?

I mean, traditionally we think of men as being the protectors of the home, and physically they're stronger, and so they were the ones who were the protectors of the home, but now I feel like women have a really important role to play here, now that we're not hunter-gatherers or, you know, farmers or, you know, it's not the Wild West.

Modern culture is that whoever's home

needs to be thinking about how do we protect these four walls so that this is really a sanctuary.

And that includes managing technology in a really responsible way, not letting people have access to your children.

And that's one of the initiatives that we think and talk about a lot.

So this is a really relevant issue for both of us, I think.

SPEAKER 2: Erin

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I mean, I think there are some states that have moved to ban the uses of phones in schools, which is really helpful.

SPEAKER 1: Kathryn

Which is shocking that they're allowed anyway.

SPEAKER 2: Erin

Yeah.

Right.

Right.

Totally.

I what I was going to say, though, is, you know, once you have the phone, it can be a really great opportunity to teach, teach time management and discipline right now that we know and are starting to learn even more about the effects of these smartphones on our youth.

You know, once once my child does have access to a phone with, you know, all the bells and whistles, all the Internet, all the apps, because there will come that time

to teach them from personal experience, but seeing, you know, the data that we have access to now, what does this do and how do you manage?

You know, do you time block?

Okay, I'm going to give myself 20 minutes to do a, you know, hedonistic social media buzz through.

Or, you know, do you... There are ways to leverage this technology.

I mean, the fact that we have access to

All of human knowledge through this little device of ours is amazing.

And we will need to use these devices in our professional lives.

Right?

So there is an element of, of value in the in this tool.

And

It presents for those people that are in leadership positions in the home to really have that conversation with your child about how to use this in a way that is responsible for you and for your mental health as you grow up into adulthood, because it can become a real problem.

SPEAKER 1: Kathryn

Right.

And also it's up to us, I think, as mothers and fathers, um, to start to establish new social norms around it.

Because, um, you know, there's a social norm about, uh, you know, you wouldn't walk into somebody's house and see their 12 year old smoking a cigarette.

That's right.

You wouldn't walk into somebody's home and see a 14 or a 16 year old drinking a vodka martini.

So at a certain point, there'll be a social norm also, like, oh gosh, we know that this is harmful to the development of the brain of our child.

even more harmful potentially than cannabis or alcohol for developing brain.

And perhaps through, you know, like the classes that we want to develop, the chapbook that I'm working on right now is the Hearthology chapbook.

It's like, you know, we teach classes on how to manage that.

Maybe that's just part of what we learn in high school is how to think about these technologies.

And I don't know what the answer is, because it'll always be easy.

Like, we don't want over-regulation, right?

When I think about how do you actually regulate this?

How do you prevent kids from connecting to the Wi-Fi?

And maybe it's something like they have phones that have access to certain things, but simply no social media.

The phone absolutely won't run any kind of social media.

But again, I don't know how you do that.

Because all you have to do is connect to the internet and you can connect to social media on some sort of a platform.

But you know, what if it like the kids had a phone that was a certain

you know, size for access to certain things, but they can only access social media on like an iPad or a computer.

And again, maybe it's, maybe we're thinking about it all wrong.

These are just discussions we need to be having.

And again, I don't know how to do this without regulation.

I don't have any ideas and I haven't heard any great ideas, but how do we change the motivation for social media?

Maybe social media networks, you know, maybe the ones that are capitalizing on these algorithms and monetizing our attention, maybe they become taboo socially.

Maybe we have social media networks that are controlled.

You know, and they're all private membership based intranets.

And there are levels of access depending on your age.

So if you're eight, you get to connect with the other, you know, eight to 12 year olds in your community.

through your social media thing.

And then we turn on permissions that allow you, once you're 12, to connect with the 12 and the 16-year-olds or, you know, in terms of just social media.

But you always have access to internet to look up a question about the history of something, right, that you're studying.

So, again, I just hope that there are technologists really thinking about this.

And it seems like Tristan and Asa really are.

At least getting the conversation going, and they've made a tremendous impact with Apple iPhones, right?

The permissions, like these apps aren't allowed to track us the way they used to, and that's a direct result of Tristan and Aza's work with the Center for Humane Technology.

SPEAKER 2: Erin

Yeah, well, but I think you're right in saying that, like, in the absence of regulation, like, what do we do now?

Teaching current and future parents

is the answer.

I worry most about the millennials, like I worry most about myself and Gen Z parents who are about to start having children themselves, who are trying to figure out their own relationship with social media.

And, um, you know, the percentage of us who are just, who are not, not thinking about how to

you know, sort of detach themselves who are truly addicted to these apps, who are already like, you know, posting videos of their young children, and in some cases monetizing them.

Like, what effect does their parent style have on their children growing up, right?

Because they're not going to be the ones to say, no, no, let's put the phone away if they're making a living on TikTok.

So, you know, the high school level education is super important.

It's, you know, how do you use this responsibly for yourselves?

But as you become parents in the future, you know, what do you want this relationship to look like for your kids?

SPEAKER 1: Kathryn

Yeah, yeah.

You know, and there are some real issues in terms of getting research funded that prove how harmful this is to the development of your child's brain.

And actually, let's just say it, mind, body, spirit, right?

All of it.

And, you know, cigarettes

In the 50s and 60s, that research, I think, was funded through universities.

I think our system is so different now, it's hard to get this funding to do the research.

And so I think one of the ways, and I hope tech companies will listen to us as we, you know, as our nonprofit moves into that world and starts talking to some of these leaders, that we

That we suggest to them that one of the ways they can build trust with parents is by changing how they manage social media.

There's an opportunity for them to build trust with us.

if they're the ones doing the research, they're the ones funding it, they're the richest companies in the world, why wouldn't they fund the research that shows, you know, this is bad technology for kids.

And for that reason, we are going to create this type of technology for kids instead.

And yeah, so I don't know, I just, somebody's got to be creatively thinking about this.

And I wonder,

I mean, you know, I live near Silicon Valley and Bruce was pretty enmeshed in that world for many years.

And, you know, I know some really conscientious, wonderful people, but I see a lot of tech bros and they're rewarded for running fast and hard and breaking things.

you know, and technology, technology, technology that that can earn, you know, billionaire investors more money.

It's like, man, at a certain point, the model has to shift.

And it's up to these big tech giants, I think, to, to lead that, that sort of movement.